Michelle Lomas
Hey there, hustlers. Welcome back to season two of Flex Your Hustle, and do we have an absolutely cracking series for you. This season has it all. From the hustle growth stories, you've grown to love, introductions to new publishers and technology changing the industry, and plenty of revealing moments where we go deep on what it's like to be a founder.
Irene Falcone
I'm Irene, Irene Falcone, and I am the founder of Sans Drinks, which is the non-alcoholic bottle shop in Australia. That's my second business.
Michelle Lomas
Let's just get into it. You are a bit of a high achiever, so what is it, from an inspiring perspective, what is it now that you seek out for inspiration and to learn from?
Irene Falcone
This is gonna sound crazy, but how to work less, how to step back, to not make my business the end all and be all. When I sold my company, I sold my soul, and I'm inspired by people that can separate their companies that they founded to them as a person and have a little bit of work-life balance. That's what I'm seeking out the most. The success of my business is so ingrained into how I feel every day.
Michelle Lomas
I mean, it's really hard. We have a lot of founders on this show, and most of them are a bit like you and like what you've just been doing with Sans Drinks, started with a couple of stores here and there, so you might have a couple of retail stores, but predominantly it's an eCom world and like you can't turn off.
Irene Falcone
Every time the RBA increases their interest rates, my sales drop 50% the next day. I need to learn and adapt, or else I'm going to go into a mental health spiral.
Michelle Lomas
I mean, we just had, Anthony Nappa from Oz Hair and Beauty was in the studio a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about the fact that his dad had to step in and tell him to calm down because what would happen is if there weren't enough sales in that hour, he would be going on the website and plugging an order to see if the website had broken.
Irene Falcone
That's what I do.
Michelle Lomas
Because he was that obsessive.
Irene Falcone
So I looked on Shopify and like had like hardly had three sales.
Michelle Lomas
It's all okay. Don't panic.
Irene Falcone
It does unfortunately tell you some information that I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know what is exactly the percentage up or down from the week average to the time, to the minute. I don't wanna know that like, cause we are in an age where we have so much information and so much data.
Michelle Lomas
Yes, you're not alone.
Irene Falcone
Yeah. And I cannot control the reserve bank. Westpac asked me to come along to something they were doing with the treasurer to talk to the treasurer about how, you know, small businesses are affected by these rate changes and the changes Yeah. Economy. Yeah. How valuable it would be for them to hear from someone like me who is in eCommerce and how it affects people's online spending.
Michelle Lomas
They need someone like you.
Irene Falcone
So I just need to like. try and cope.
Michelle Lomas
Yeah. Well look, for the listeners listening, it's been, it is an interesting segue, but let's talk a little bit about, you know, how you got started because your obsessiveness has come from a very long time.
Irene Falcone
No, I come from a corporate background. You know, I worked in media since 1992. Not to go that far back, but I do. I worked with John Singleton. He was a big advertising guy back in the day. I remember like a town hall meeting in my agency where the Managing Director told everybody, we are getting this thing called email.
Michelle Lomas
No more faxes. Actually, faxes still stuck around for quite a while, didn't they? People couldn't grasp not sending a fax.
Irene Falcone
Yeah, yeah. No, they were still there. From email it, it developed into access to the internet. And again, I remember this email coming around. Saying it was company policy that we needed to go outside on our lunch break because everyone was so obsessed with this thing called the internet, not leaving their desk anymore, and they wanted to stay at in their desk and Google things. I don't think it was Google, then it was Yahoo.
Michelle Lomas
Ask Jeeves.
Irene Falcone
I think it might have been that one. There was huge resistance actually in corporate to embrace the internet and to embrace emails and those sorts of things. And then I ended up leaving an agency and working in-house at Universal Pictures actually.
Michelle Lomas
Delightful to be able to build a business while you still have a job and then see it so successful that you can actually leave.
Irene Falcone
Oh, well, I mean, I don't even know where to start, but I talk about this a lot. I went from a hundred dollars to 20 million dollars just by using Facebook. I mean, I just, as soon as I realised that it was a one to 15 conversion rate, just a license to print money. I talk about that a lot. Just put a couple thousand dollars on Facebook, post something that's amazing and telling people about it that, and then it just converted.
Michelle Lomas
It was good for so many brands.
Irene Falcone
Yeah, it was really great for eCommerce.
Irene Falcone
Plus it wasn't so good for the delivery because I don't think anyone ever got any of their deliveries.
Irene Falcone
That it was certainly good for sales.
Michelle Lomas
I don't, I don't want products following me around the internet that I don't care about. I actually just want the products that, you know, I can discover that are completely targeted to me. So I completely agree with you. I do wonder sometimes why consumers don't understand the value of that.
Irene Falcone
I completely agree. And so it's really that turning off of cookies that has stopped the ability for amazing small businesses to be able to reach people who really want those brands, and there has been a huge swing now back to the original days where only the big brands with the really big budget are able to have enough reach now to, yeah, to create a business.
Irene Falcone
Yeah. So I had to end up selling my properties and all of the money that I'd made from Nourished Life, in order to continue to drive the same amount of revenue through the business.
Michelle Lomas
How you going with that? Because TikTok is a bit of a challenge. We had on last year's season, we had the team at Mr. Consistent and Kahrissa came on and she was talking as well, you know, obviously a similar product. Hers is a cocktail mixer, but they also, you know, cater towards the non drink or occasional drinker. She had a lot to say about, you know, the sometimes hard work it takes to cut through on TikTok, there's a lot of rules that brands have to follow, and if you break the rules, you're in trouble.
Irene Falcone
In my personal opinion, TikTok is not a place for brands. And it is not a place for celebrities. And I think that's where a lot of people are going wrong. And I think that Mr. Consistent is a really interesting example because it's a brand. See, for me, I started TikTok with Sans Drinks.
Michelle Lomas
So let's see how that paves out. Oh, goodness me. Well let's talk about that actually. It's a, it's a really good segue into what is a key strategy for you around you as the face.
Irene Falcone
It is the easiest thing to do in the world, being yourself. It's so much easier. It's exactly the same advice I gave back in 2011. I'm gonna attribute my success to the fact that I'm not the polished influencer or a model.
Michelle Lomas
Okay. I'm just gonna interrupt here for one minute and give you some context.
Irene Falcone
I'm changing Sans Drinks as of last night. I was really struggling with strengths because unlike Nourished Life, it took a really long time for all of the majors to copy my idea. But it took it was really quickly. It was very fast on how quick the Dans and the Woolworths and Coles jumped on the bandwagon of Alcohol-free drink.
Michelle Lomas
I'm so glad you bringing this up because I really wanted to talk about this post.
Irene Falcone
Did you see it?
Michelle Lomas
It was brave. I saw it. I saw, yep. You posted and you said, guys, I wanna change my entire direction. I've been thinking about it. It was so honest. You know, I think I wanna go down in the direction of premium. What do you think? How brave to just be so open on, you know, your social channels and say, should I just change the entire direction of my business?
Irene Falcone
Yeah at Nourished Life, I do the same thing and I ask questions all the time and I remember I made a mistake once and I actually stocked something that I shouldn't have by mistake and I put a thing out on Facebook and I said, I've made a mistake like I effed up and I'm really sorry.
Michelle Lomas
That are excellent.
Irene Falcone
And I use, use their oil cleanser. Of course I have to. Same. Can't shop at Nourished Life.
Irene Falcone
I'm gonna make one of those if I ever get Nourished Life back, but yes. So that made me think, I think that's what I need to do.
Michelle Lomas
You actually need to ask your customers.
Irene Falcone
So I asked and, oh my goodness. Right? Did you see the responses? Oh my goodness.
Michelle Lomas
I did. Everyone was extremely positive. They're gonna stick with you if you pick premium, amazing products you can't get anywhere else. You don't care paying premium because you know it's quality. I trust what's in Mecca. Your customers said they're all cult products, so what are you gonna do?
Irene Falcone
I, I love what you just said because I love that word cult.
Michelle Lomas
Oh my God, I love this. I love it.
Irene Falcone
I'm going to remove everything off my website that has artificial sweetener in it like aspartame. I'm so sorry, you are gonna go. You're gone off. Gone as in gone. And I'm going to also remove everything that has more than five grams of sugar per hundred.
Michelle Lomas
Oh, please do. It's my bug bear about non-alcoholic wine. It tastes like grape juice.
Irene Falcone
And I'm also gonna cull everything with artificial colours in it. There's nothing against these brands, but I'm gonna make my own ingredients, policy and tasting policy with a team of everyday, just everyday people, that represent the community. And I'm gonna make Sans Drinks yeah, like the non-alcoholic Mecca, that's the only way I can describe it.
Irene Falcone
I couldn't sleep after reading all those comments.
Michelle Lomas
You've just given everybody listening kind of an eye in, or an ear, I should say, into the brain of such an exceptional founder that is obsessive about the customer and you've just like, I can see it, I can hear the excitement.
Irene Falcone
40% of My sales are gonna go overnight. And my other feedback was around delivery times as well and postage times. You know, it's really hard. I use Australia Post and I love Australia Post as well.
Irene Falcone
Goodness me. Do they love to smash a bottle?
Irene Falcone
So I'm actually testing a new delivery partner today. I'm hoping to solve that problem as well. So we need to be able to be nimble enough to pivot on a dime when our customers give us feedback, particularly when it's so overwhelming.
Michelle Lomas
Huge lesson. I think a huge lesson for founders. I mean, it's, you know, it's so easy when you get to your level of success to slow down a little bit on the decision making, and it becomes a bit of a political conversation. Whereas I just love your gusto. You just like, no, we're just gonna do it. I'm just gonna do it.
Irene Falcone
To be fair, it came out of desperation of the fact that if I continue to go on this journey of trying to compete with the supermarket, then I'm going to lose.
Michelle Lomas
Yeah. What, what are you doing?
Irene Falcone
I don't think you should buy me. This isn't gonna work. This is the wrong fit. And they said, we don't care. Don't stock it, then we don't stock it. So I had it written in my contract that I get to decide what I sell and what I don't sell. We were, we were coming into the pandemic.
Michelle Lomas
You have to think long term as well as short term and not just the sales that you're driving today, but you know, how are you building that customer base for tomorrow? I am curious because you focus so much on the consumer, making decisions around them and what do they want and what do they care about, which is like such a refreshing way to look at your business, not just, you know, at bottom line and what's gonna sell more product and how do I get as much product out there as possible.
Irene Falcone
It's 50/50 every day, being self-funded, I have the, the challenges of cash flow, but I also have the ability to have a business that is 100% consumer focused and I'm genuinely live and breathe it rather than just put it on a PowerPoint presentation when it's a load of crap.
Michelle Lomas
How is that playing out as a strategy for repeat customers for lifetime value you've built two very successful, you know, retail brands off the back of just listening to the customer and being your true and authentic self.
Irene Falcone
Yeah. I think that the customers that, that weren't meant to be will I think Woolworth and Dans will pick up some of my customers and I think that I will gain more customers as more and more people know that I exist and how, what a great job I do on drinking non-alcoholic drinks that taste fantastic and are better for you.
Michelle Lomas
So let's talk a little bit about marketing and you've, again, you've been yeah founder for quite a while, exited one business, launched another one. I mean, let's not ignore the fact that, you know, you stepped into a category non-alcoholic drinks that is really only just growing in groundswell.
Irene Falcone
Yeah. 80% of my customers drink alcohol still.
Michelle Lomas
Oh, that's interesting.
Irene Falcone
Which is why it's so important to get the good tasty alternatives for them. I think people that just, yeah, prep people that just don't drink at all either don't like the taste of wine, they don't drink it or they're pretty okay with you tasting like grape juice and that's fine.
Michelle Lomas
Yeah. You're welcome to it.
Irene Falcone
Or like Aperol Spritz alternative.
Irene Falcone
I know. I would say that other than gin and tonic, it's alternative. Yeah, they are my second biggest category other than wines.
Michelle Lomas
So let's talk about like marketing and what are the things you've learned over the years? You know, obviously social has been a big channel for you, but what else, has been working for you in terms of sort of driving new customers and driving awareness?
Irene Falcone
You know what, I don't have any tactics. I actually don't. Say what I feel and do what I think. And let the customers know what I've found.
Michelle Lomas
That is your tactic.
Irene Falcone
I put a photo up on social media of me in my workout gear, and I'm by the way, very flattered that you thought I'd come back from a workout, post that photo and talk about something that's amazing that I've discovered and or review something. And that will convert to a lot of sales I know with the Barossa Valley Shiraz, that I stock, I said that I thought it was a really good alternative to a Penfold Bin 389. I'm a huge wine collector and I had a full wine cellar full of Penfolds. And Body and Soul picked up on that, and then they did their own review on it, and they said, this is the wine and the non-alcoholic Barossa Valley Shiraz that you can use that that's similar, that I can't say that tastes like a Penfold Bin 389 but it's as close as you're gonna get. Well, I sold 22 pallets.
Irene Falcone
Of that wine in one month. The winery ran out of this product that's like 13,000 bottles of one wine in a month, and that was because that Body and Soul article. But I didn't really go out like it wasn't really, it was just me being honest and it got, luckily I got picked up by mainstream media, which is amazing.
Irene Falcone
Two likes. Something like that and I hid the photos with no sales. So I think that it's so much cheaper to tell you as well. I have an anti-influencer policy.
Michelle Lomas
I was just gonna ask that. Do you use influencers since you are essentially the influencer for the brand?
Irene Falcone
Yeah. That's a really important point I wanna raise for any entrepreneurs out there that think that they need to hire influencers. You are the influencer as the business owner, you are the influencer and there's one really great thing about being a business owner versus using an influencer. There's two really great things.
Irene Falcone
I dunno about you. When I see that someone is being paid to promote a product, I scroll straight past it and I think it has zero credibility.
Michelle Lomas
Just by being yourself, I guess. It's a really good lesson for people listening and you as the founder being the face, because there's certainly a lot of cases where a brand has been very successful without having a founder as a face. But I think it's that testament to finding what your authentic voice is and what is going to resonate. And you know, I think you've really found that.
Irene Falcone
What is a great example that I don't think the founder's really on that Frank Body
Irene Falcone
It's amazing by the way, it's frigging awesome.
Irene Falcone
And I think its a great strategy too.
Michelle Lomas
I mean, that should be part of everybody's strategy. You know, how do we actually use our customers to be our number one marketing channel?
Michelle Lomas
And like keeping it real and you know, look at the success that you've seen so far.
Irene Falcone
There's some really great ones and the reviews are on there. You can see which ones are getting the five stars and which ones aren't.
Michelle Lomas
So I wanna ask a question just on some of your performance marketing and, and affiliate marketing specifically, 'cause I know you guys are, are pretty big players in that space. And so I think for people listening they might be a little confused cuz affiliate marketing often gets bundled in with influencer marketing.
Irene Falcone
Affiliate marketing has been the second biggest driver to my businesses at Nourished Life. I use Commission Factory, and it was the best thing I ever did. It was huge 'cause there was a lot of beauty writers and a lot of beauty influencers.
Michelle Lomas
Didn't get the same level of service.
Irene Falcone
I didn't get the same level of service, but more importantly, it actually sunk me financially that it was so expensive. That I decided I wasn't gonna do affiliate marketing anymore. Problematic for me actually.
Irene Falcone
I've got a little bit of work to do now 'cause I need to build more affiliates. So it's been a bit of a journey, but I'm so happy that I'm doing it. I think affiliate marketing is the last influencer marketing you're allowed to do without saying that it's a pain.
Irene Falcone
But even when you read the disclosures, they're really well done. Like, think like Mamma Mia, for example, would be an affiliate of mine, but they'll say, you know, some of these links, we make a small amount of commission on it.
Irene Falcone
But only the links based on products we would've added to the article anyway that we would've promoted anyway. They just happened to have an affiliate link as part of the link to their site. And so it's a very genuine, still and honest. It's not like they're getting paid by one person to promote their product.
Michelle Lomas
I'm sure most publishers would be willing, or writers or editors out there would be willing to have a taste.
Irene Falcone
Oh yeah. No. The top affiliates for me are not media. They're actually experts in the non-alcoholic drinking space.
Michelle Lomas
Excellent.
Irene Falcone
Yeah. Or I've always found that bloggers with their own community of followers. Particularly those that have beautiful communities that actually want to support the affiliate. So for example, I've got a lovely, a beautiful affiliate in WA and she's a coach for Gray Area Drinking. Her followers know they don't need to click on her website to buy from me, they can buy from me.
Michelle Lomas
Yeah, I can definitely see that. I mean, you're, you're so focused on people and community and listening to the people and, and it's nice that, you know, through such a big company like Commission Factory, you can find some of these more niche bloggers as well.
Irene Falcone
Yeah. How to grow the relationship through the same bloggers or more bloggers.
Michelle Lomas
Yeah, more bloggers building more and sort of, I, I guess it's kind of like going back to the point that you made before that you are back on the platform, but it's gonna take some time because it does take time.
Irene Falcone
No, you've got to work on it. Like at Nourished Life, I had a full-time in-house person that did nothing but work on the Commission Factory for me. I can't remember exactly at least I'm gonna say 15 or 20% of my revenue came from affiliates, and that took 10 years to grow with Commission Factory, and it was amazing and I'm so happy to be back there.
Michelle Lomas
I actually have, Emily sitting in the room in the next room, next to me, so she's probably sitting there going thank you.
Irene Falcone
I've used the two top affiliate companies, and I'm back with Commission Factory because part of it is really cost effective as well. Well, and I'm very conscious , of finance cash flow, but it's more community based and more user friendly and more of the bloggers as opposed to just the, the cash rewards. It feels less corporate and less...
Michelle Lomas
performancy.
Michelle Lomas
I think there's something about Commission Factory that I feel like they have a lot of the same values as you. It's about creators as well and authenticity, and it's not just about clipping a ticket on a sale and driving as much sales as possible. It's also, you know, understanding how those affiliate relationships and everybody who can be added to the mix can also help brand as well as drive sales.
Irene Falcone
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I don't want it to be a commercial. Yeah. I mean, but like in my hands down genuineness of everything. I will never leave the Commission Factory again, and I will never run the risk of not having it on board. I can see my affiliate partners making some days a lot more money than I do.
Irene Falcone
Right. Of your brand with any of the overheads at all and still make the same amount of net profit as the retailer.
Michelle Lomas
Is this the next business for you, Irene?
Michelle Lomas
You don't feel the love of it?
Irene Falcone
Yeah, no. I gonna be the bootstrap founder, then be the rich affiliate. But in general that, that is what I think is super exfiting, 'cause again, I'm customer centric and I'm centric around people. Like mums at homes and stuff, I want them to be able to make income and stuff like that.
Irene Falcone
So for, I think that, for me, I think that's a really interesting way to look at it.
Michelle Lomas
Yeah, it is. It's really good. We had we had Jody Allen on here. She was our very, very, very first guest on our first season at Stay-At-Home Mom, and she started her business after being let go, eight months pregnant, no job in sight and no idea what to do. And she built a Facebook community and asked people on Facebook, what do I do? Because I've just lost my job and I'm about to have a child and we're building a house and we've got really bad cashflow. And she had 50,000 moms join her community in the space of two days and give her a ton of advice.
Irene Falcone
Isn't that amazing?
Michelle Lomas
It's amazing. She's literally built this business of recommending products and tips and tricks and all sorts of other things, recipes and whatever, to groups of mums who just want real advice.
Irene Falcone
You do need to find the right affiliate platform, though. I will say that genuinely.
Irene Falcone
It can make or break you as well.
Michelle Lomas
It's not the easiest thing to navigate as well, and it takes time. It's not just like something that you can do or buy and then does it work or it doesn't.
Irene Falcone
See, it actually is tricky. The like the setup and stuff from the, not from all retailer perspective, but from affiliate. I remember it being a bit fiddly. So once he gets set up, it's worth it.
Michelle Lomas
We just need more experts in the field too. That's one of the challenges. Not enough experts who run, you know, can sit in the brand side of things as well.
Michelle Lomas
Well, Irene, I wanna thank you today. We went way over. This has been such an incredible conversation. I wasn't expecting you know, I knew I knew your reputation as sharing a lot about yourself and the business and putting yourself out there, but I actually wanna thank you for your vulnerability 'cause you were very vulnerable in some moments here.
Michelle Lomas
We'll leave some information in the show notes for anyone who was listening to some of those bottles and names that you dropped. If they wanna try a drop or two. And I wanna ask if we can have you back on the show to hear how things are going. I think I'd love, we'd love, to do a follow up.
Irene Falcone
Absolutely. I would love that. Yes. Let's do a follow up and I'll let you know how it went.
Michelle Lomas
Excellent. I know we're gonna get the honest truth, so we'll be curious to hear how it goes.
Michelle Lomas
Have another exciting episode coming up. Here's a sneak peek.
Joel Leong
One thing we'd like to say is that if no one else in this world has ever done this idea before, there are two possibilities for that.
Michelle Lomas
Well done to you.
Joel Leong
Yeah. The other one is that, you know the other, the idea might not be a viable one, and that's why people have tried, they failed and have not succeeded.
Michelle Lomas
If you aren't already, don't forget to follow, so you don't miss an ep.